Wednesday, March 4, 2015

Fahrenheit 451 Fishbowl #3--part 2: fifth hour

I think our outer circle discussion could have been better last class.

A few reminders:
1.  I want to see your questions and comments throughout the course of discussion.  Let's be more concrete:  to earn full credit, aim for 3-5 well, developed, text-supported responses.  Some today will be writing a response instead.  If I'm unable to see your thinking on the blog, this assignment will be your mandatory alternative next fishbowl.

2.  Use the comment thread feature.  Rather than writing @ whomoever, press the "reply" button directly below the comment or question to which you're responding.

3.  For EVERY EVERY EVERY question and comment you offer, capture a quote that informed that comment or question.  EVERY.  In some places, we were throwing out those comments and questions with quotes, but without more explanation, it was unclear how the 2 connected.  Here is one of the only good examples I found from last class; Bergen commented, "Unfortunately, I almost feel like he does. After slapping her, he just say "Listen, give me a second." (pg. 63) so it almost seems like it doesn't bother him to much."

Let's step up our game today, outer circle!  You can do better!

58 comments:

  1. How does Faber describe the value of the books? Do you think these definitions are accurate?

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    1. "Its not books you need, its some of the things that once were in books." Quote form Faber pg 82

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    2. Faber describes the value of books by saying "The things your looking for, Montag, are in the world, but the only way the average chap will ever see ninety-nine percent of them is in a book" (Bradbury 82) This illustrates the kind of light Faber sees books in. I think that this is an accurate description of books, because without them it would have been very hard to spread ideas back before there was internet.

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    3. On page 75, Faber describes books as "having pores." By this, Bradbury means that books have flaws, and they have opinions. Books, even with characters instead of people, are more real than the actual people in this society. Faber describes how books are valuable because they question society and show different perspectives. I agree with Faber and think his definitions are accurate. "'[Books] show the pores in the face of life. The comfortable people want only wax moon faces, poreless, hairless, expressionless.’” Personally, I would rather have someone who is real, like a book, than someone whose priorities is to fit into society, like Mildred.

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    4. Early on in part two Faber describes books importance saying that "they have quality. And what does the word quality mean? To me it means texture." By this I think Faber means that unlike most things they have in this society, books have personality and creativity unmatched in the modern world.

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  2. Why do you think there are so many Suicides: "Hell, we get these cases nine or ten a night" (p.13)

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    1. I think that everyone is secretly unhappy, some just won't admit it. For example, at the beginning of the book Mildred wouldn't admit she tried to commit suicide but Montag once he thought about it knew he was unhappy. Also, some people blame other things for their depression, like Mrs. Bowles on pg 97.

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    2. Probably because these people are living a life in fear. They are always worried and have practically been removed of their freedom. After Clara has the book read to her, she is obviously scared of getting in trouble "You're all right, Clara, now, Clara, snap out of it! Clara, what's wrong?"
      I think this displays the true fear in this society just because she is crying over simply reading a forbidden book.

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    3. I think there are so many suicides because like Mildred everyone is doing the same thing over and over again which leads to depression; "Someone else just jumped off the cap of a pillbox" (13).

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    4. I think that there are so many suicides because the people in this society don't really have a lot to live for. An example of this is how Montag felt empty once Clarrisse died and when he found out the truth of his profession. Simple things like books and love keep most people going each day. If Montag could lose these simple pleasures that quickly so can everyone else. Another way to think of this is the death part. Even in today's society suicide can be a very confusing concept, I think that the whole idea of death is a confusing concept in their world. This showed during this reading when Mildred's friends are talking and one says "It's always someone else's husband dies they say." They completely ignore death, the thinking and the knowing about it. With such a lonely existence in a blind society suicide is a quick fix for short term problems.

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    5. I think that there are so many suicides because everyone is getting their freedom taken away from them. everyone is being harassed and getting their houses burned down just for having a book, so everyone is already scared and they don't want to live in a world like this.

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    6. I don't think it's been long since books were banned especially since Faber remembers them "It's as good as I remember." (Bradbury 77) So I think some people who still love and remember books end up going through depression because they aren't allowed to have their freedom and therefore they might have the mindset of "if I can't have the joy of reading books and doing what I want what's the point of living in this society?"

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  3. As I was reading last night, it occurred to me that Faber is kind of like a conscience to Montag. Does anyone else feel this way?

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    1. I agree, he's someone that Montag can connect to, and talk to.

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  4. Whoever reports to the fireman who has books, how did they find out about Montag's books? Could it have been Mrs. Bowls since she was so mad at Montag for reading that poem?

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    1. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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    2. I do not quite know the answer to your question, but remember when the mechanical dog comes scratching at the door? I think since that dog was for the fireman, the dog can tell when there are books. Why else would it be around? "Mildred laughed. 'It's only a dog, that's what! You want me to shoo him away?'" (Pg. 68) David also made a good point with how Mrs. Bowles felt.

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    3. I think Mrs. Bowles reported Montag because she was very shaken up about the poem; "Mrs. Phelps was crying"(97). Mrs Bowles was very upset too because she felt bad for her.

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  5. Do you think that Mildred attempted to commit suicide again? Bradbury said "She shook the sleeping tablets into her hand." Why do you think Montag allowed her to have the pills again after what happened?

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    1. The real question is how much do you think Montag would care if she passed? In my opinion they aren't in love. I realize, he would still care and be sad. But his time is pre-occupied with being in love/facinated with books. I think he allowed her to have the pills because he had to know if she meant to do it the first time; or if it was truly a mistake.

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    2. She was having the pills again but we don't know the serving size she was having. I don't think Montag cares enough or loves her enough to stop her.

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    3. Well on page 41 Montage gets really worried about Mildred but you can tell by the way they talk to each other that they have no say in each other's life. So even if he wanted to he couldn't do anything about it.

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  6. Why do you think they are aloud to watch such violent tv programs yet; books are banned so we can't know about problems and violence of the past....ex: While watching t.v with Mildred, Montag describes the program "White cartoon clowns chopped off each other's limbs..."

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    1. I had the same question in my reading journal last night. I do not get it either. This society I have realized is really odd and backwards

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    2. I think books were mostly banned to censor the information that makes the government look bad. Also, the stuff we see as violence is seen as entertainment to them, like when the bodies flew across the screen and Millie was not bothered by it. "Millie, did you see that?" "I saw it, I saw it!" pg 90

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    3. I think that they are allowed to watch violent TV programs because the government controls the history that is in the programs on television. The books don't have that filter and so that is why the government allows these programs because I think they don't care as much about violence then they do history. The history explains the old world and all of the freedom available back then. Great question Bergen!

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    4. This society prefers to watch violent television instead of read books because they find violence entertaining. Books are looked down upon,and so naturally, the people in the society don't want to read. Also no one controls them, they do not have a specific government that is implicating the book banning. On page 55 Beatty says, "It didn't come from the Government ... there was no dictum, no declaration, no censorship... technology, mass exploitation... carried the trick." The people want the technology, they want the violence that comes with technology, and what they do not want are books.

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    5. I think they allow tv programs such as this because the government can use things like tv to shape the society they're trying to create. Books are a very different story because the gov. knows they can't use these books to shape society and that some of the ideas in the books they ban go against the principles they hope to install. We see even in our own society the impact that the media has on us, much of what we do as a whole is heavily influenced by what we see on things like tv and music.

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  7. Is this society violent? Do they find pleasure in hurting other things? And why do you think that is? On page 90, “A minute later, three White Cartoon Clowns chopped off each other’s limbs to the accompaniment of immense incoming tides of laughter.”

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    1. I think that this small detail could have represented the violence within the society. Also, the motif of white came up again. Since the clowns (the symbol of violence in this case) were white, I think it's almost showing that society has lost it's innocence and is now (society is) a pretty scary, violent place to live in.

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    3. I think that the violence that is on the TV programs are the only thing that is exciting and different in there society. I think that also these people are wanting to express there feelings toward the closed society and they are awed by the violent shows and maybe thinking in the back of there mind they want to express there feelings in violence as well.

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    4. I do believe that this is a violent society and that the television broadcasting of violent acts like that are not the only clue in this. In this chapter Mrs. Phelps stated "He'll be back next week. The Army said so. Quick war." I thought this was interesting that there was war in general because if there aren't books to learn from the past more wars would happen. War is a very violent ideal and I think it is strange how she described it as quick. She doesn't think about who her husband would kill or how during those two days. If a war seems like nothing I can't imagine the acts of violence that would scare people in this society.

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    5. I feel like their society in this book took a step back and didn't care what happened as long as no one got the idea to go back on the government. Or I feel like the government is using fear and freedom to keep them back from revolting.

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  8. Montag likes to comment on his hand like they have a mind of their own like on page 102 when it says,"Montag felt the guilt of his hands" why do you think that is?

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    1. I think he was referring to how his hands have touched books and he feels guilt for breaking the law. It's like the Kite Runner, how Hassan kept on taking baths to get rid of the feeling of being "dirty".

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    2. I think he is referring to how much kerosene and guilt lie upon his hands. I think he is referring to how so many books have been burnt by his hands in his lifetime, and he is looking back at it all know after so many realizations.

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    3. I believe for Montag it's a little bit of denial, I think he would rather believe that his hands did it vs. actually being responsible for his actions. He knows how wrong it is in their society to have books so it's almost a coping mechanism freeing him from the guilt he has.

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  9. Like DJ said, if the president has no power, who is making the decisions about these books and the ban on them? Do you agree with Jackson that the elections and the president are just there to give people hope as a figurehead?

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    1. I believe the elections are there not only to give them a figurehead, but a sense of control over their government; and what they do with it.

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    2. I think there may be a behind the scene government who makes all decisions and the president is the picture of the government. "I think he's one of the nicest looking men ever became president." -Mrs. Bowles pg 93

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    3. I think the president is just there to give people hope. Mildred and her friends do not even care about views on politics; "I think he is one of the nicest looking men to be president" (93). They clearly have no views on any political issues.

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  10. What do you think about the way part 2 ended? ""Something the matter, Montag?" "Why" said Montag slowly, "we've stopped in front of my house."" (Page 106)

    Why did Bradbury choose to end the section here? Is that why Beatty was driving that night... it says on page 106 "Beatty never drove, but he was driving tonight"

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    1. I think that Bradbury decided to end this part here simply because it is climactic. It leaves the reader questioning why did they stop at his house? What do they plan to do? Authors do this to shock the reader and keep them reading to the next section. I think that Beatty drived that night because he knows where Montag's house is because he was there in the previous section when Montag was "sick". He actually is purposely bringing this up to bother Montag when he said "Montag, you don't look well? I'd hate to think you were coming down with another fever..." I think he wanted to drive because he is planning something big and also wants to teach the other firemen a lesson, showing his authority and control by him knowing where Montag lives.

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  11. On page 103-104 Beatty tells Montag about his dream and how Montag had quoted books and argued with Beatty about them, but Beatty had repelled all Montag's quotes of books with his own quotes of books. Why does Beatty have this knowledge of books?

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    1. Beatty most likely knows about these quotes because he has read books. On page 58, Beatty, himself, says "'At least once in his career, every fireman gets and itch. What do the books say, he wonders. Oh, to scratch that itch, eh?'" So what exempts Beatty from that itch?- Nothing. He has probably read and that is how he knows the quotes.

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    2. Earlier in the book Beatty talked about how every firefighter has curiosity, and a weakness to know at some point. That's probably where Beatty learned all the quotes. I believe he still reads books. I think he has the knowledge to be stronger, smarter then everyone else in this society. "Every fireman, sooner or later, hits this." (page 51)

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    3. I think in Beatty's past he has probably stolen books, he probably read them and memorized lines or even paragraphs from the books. This is proven when Beatty says this "We're all sheep who have strayed at times." (Bradbury 102) He might also secretly really like books since he knows so many different quotes from different books.

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    4. I think that Beatty knows so much about books because he was alive when the books weren't banned so he was able to read them back then. On page 59 we can see that Beatty has a strong opinion on books and the conflict with books as well, "We stand against the small tide of those who want to make everyone unhappy with conflicting theory and thought" The small tide is the books and those who want to make everyone unhappy are the firemen and the government.

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  12. Do you think if the books with racism and violence were banned today, wouldn't the government have to ban the history books too? If the racism in books is too much for kids, how would we know about the 50's and the racism in that time? Do you think that might have happened in this society?

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    1. That is a really good point. There are so many movies that are way worst than books and they are not banned. It confuses me. It makes me wonder if there are any stories in history that have been censored over time.

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    2. Thinking of the war, will there be a future of ours that the wars and stories will be lost in translation?

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    3. I hope not. I think currently we have nothing to worry for and honestly nobody can read the future. But lets be honest, momentarily, our society is well balanced enough so I doubt we will have such a significant and similar occurrence.

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    4. That is a good point. That's maybe why we brought these books back and learn about them in schools. We learn from our past. Which is why we shouldn't cover it up like we used to. It's a very complex subject, which is why the government can set their rules; and allow parents to make decisions around that.

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  13. Do you think that Clarisse is actually dead? I feel that she is just being held captive somewhere in the government for exposing so much information and causing this ripple affect that Montag has been apart of.

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  14. When Mrs. Phelps begins to cry, on page 97, Mildred reacts as follows, “Sh, sh,’ said Mildred. ‘You’re all right, Clara, now, Clara, snap out of it! Clara, what’s wrong?’” Do you believe Mildred was being actually sympathetic or was she trying to end the uncomfortable situation?

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    1. Mildred doesn't seem like she really knows how to be sympathetic. I think she wants out of an awkward situation. Especially when she says "Snap out of it!" rather then truly trying to understand were Clara is coming from and calming her down.

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  15. So when Beatty was talking to Montag on page 53-55 he seems to know a lot about books, do you think he was born before the ban or do think that's just what they're told

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