Wednesday, February 25, 2015

Fahrenheit 451 fishbowl #2: fifth hour

Today we'll primarily focus our discussion on the fourth reading section of Fahrenheit 451 beginning at the page break on 45 & continuing through the end of part 1.

You should feel comfortable, however, to also ask questions about previous sections.  I especially encourage you to do so if you have comprehension questions; use this discussion as an opportunity to understand the reading.

Be sure you...

  • Are an active participant throughout our discussion time.  Students who continue to misuse class time will begin writing essays as outer circle members next class.
  • Provide a quote to contextualize each question and response.  Be sure to cite these quotes with author & page number.  For example, (Bradbury 46).
Here are some great posts from your classmates:

Jessica W. commented, "Clarisse shows Montag that things don't have to be the way it is now, she shows him that it's ok to have some fun and change routine. 'What does the Hound think about down there nights? Is it coming alive on us, really?...' P.25 This is showing how he is questioning the way of things."

and Gannon remarked, "Clarisse changes the way Montag thinks because she makes him question everything he knows; 'I didn't know that! Montag laughed abruptly' (Bradbury 7). Clarisse makes Montag question things he would never even think about."

Here is another great comment from Lorelei:  "I think that the media today is corrupting young minds in a negative way because it is so different from what real life truly is. Sometimes its not even affecting the young people it can affect adults too. Montag showed this when the firemen believed what was in their rule books. They did not question it at all and Bradbury said 'Stoneman and Black drew forth their rule books, which also contained brief histories of the Firemen of America, and laid them out where Montag, though long familiar with them, might read' This shows that not only the youth can be affected by media, but also adults and anyone can be gullible. A government like this would hurt even when handled correctly because I think that there is no way for the government to completely change people's daily lives. It doesn't matter how many books you burn the truth always shows through some time or another."

and from Taylor:  "Clarisse opens up Montag's mind about the world and makes him think differently every time they talk to each others. 'He felt his body divide itself into a hotness and a coldness, a softness and a hardness...' Is the way Montag felt after he had talked to Clarisse; making him feel different and weird."

and Grace, "It seems as if this little community is run by the thought of fear 'I'm afraid of children my own age. They kill each other. Did it always used to be like that?...' so is the thought of fear what makes the government take such big actions like burning books and censoring?"

and Bergen: "I like your question Sarah. Everyone seems to be really unhappy with this society: 
'I mean, to have firemen burn OUR houses and OUR books.' (pg. 31) These people are obviously unhappy and feel that this is unfair."  I love that you complimented Sarah's good question too, Bergen. Awesome.

and Lexi: "On page 14 Montag thinks, 'Someone else's blood there. If only someone else's flesh and brain and memory. If only they could have taken her mind along to the dry cleaner's and emptied the pockets...' From this, it is obvious that Montag is not happy with the wife he has. Do you think he will leave her to find happiness? Does he regret marrying Mildred?
  • Use the "reply" button to indicate to whom your question or comment is posted.
  • Carefully proofread your work.  This is a writing assignment.
  • Refresh your page often so you can see new posts & ideas.
Happy posting!

75 comments:

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  3. Does Montag slap Mildred usually? pg 63

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    1. I think this is just a one time thing for Montag because he is stressed and wants her to stop freaking out about the books.

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    2. Unfortunately, I almost feel like he does. After slapping her, he just say "Listen, give me a second." (pg. 63) so it almost seems like it doesn't bother him to much.

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    3. I doubt that he does. They were both in a stressful situation causing them both to do things they wouldn't normally do " He caught her,shrieking. He held her and she tried to fight away from him, scratching." This shows how even Mildred did something she wouldn't normally do.

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    4. I feel that montag would only do it once, he usually seems like a low key guy, that doesn't let to much bother him, I feel he just grew very very frustrated with her and we all do things we wouldn't usually do when we're mad

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  4. To answer Noah's first question, I think that the kerosene has always been a symbol for burning books and Montag doesn't like the smell now because his opinion on the books has changed.

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  5. Do you think burning books is worth the peace of mind of the society? pg 52 and 53

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    1. No because they are taking knowledge away from the people. The society may run easier but people do not know anything and don't have their own opinions.

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    2. But they are happy, isnt that all people actually desire? (not my actual opinion just throwing this in for the sake of a debate.)

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    3. I don't think it makes society run smoother if anything it makes it more corrupt and chaotic.

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    4. Many people have decided to go along with society. I feel like being a conformist with the burning books is just because people do not want to stand out. People usually don't want to be noticed. When the Mildred and Clarisse are shown in the book, one is a conformist but has a secret "identity" and Clarisse put ideas into peoples' heads.

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    5. They think they are happy but they really aren't. Montag thought he was happy until he clarisse challenged his way of life. "He was not happy. He said the words to himself." (Pg 9)

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    6. But thats the whole point of burning books. Like beatty said on page 57 people dont want to be bothered by decision they wont know what reading books is if they were all successfully burned. Ignorance is bliss right?everyone is happy till someone tries to make you think.

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    7. @david No I do not think it is worth it because they are sacrificing many life experiences for a more peaceful society; "I am not happy"(Bradbury 63).

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    8. They think it makes the society better, but in the part when the woman lit herself and the books on fire, Montag and Beatty seemed very weird about this whole thing and they didn't seem like they thought the world was better after that

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    9. Do the needs/wants of the many (happiness) out weigh the needs of the few (reading)?

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    10. I would definitely say that is the case in this book David. They are trying to change the world for the people that don't read, and they don't think enough about the other people that do read

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    11. I believe that burning the books is worth the peace because the way they think is that either they do it or someone else will. They believe that the less they know the better.

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  6. I dont think they interact enough to get mad, so no i dont think he slaps her usually @taylor

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  7. I like how Marissa pointed out that Montag and Mildred are not very close. I don't think that Mildred has enough real world experience to connect with what Montag is feeling

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    1. I agree. At first I felt sorry for her but now I almost feel like she's so oblivious to her surrounding and she's not trying hard enough to understand where he is coming from.

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  9. I agree completely with what Liam said(Millie does not like Montags job). That would explain why she tried to kill herself. She has been in this relationship with Montag for so long that she is kind of used to Montag's job but his job affects her.

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  10. Why does Mildred try to act like the stuff that Montag goes through means nothing? Does it actually mean nothing to her or is she bottling up her feelings?

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    1. I think that to some extent Mildred does not have enough real world experience to connect with what he is going through.

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    2. She doesn't care about what he's feeling, she's closed minded and doesn't have room for a lot of non sense her husband is telling her. She's more involved in what tv show she is watching.

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    3. I think Mildred acts that way because she's not all there in the first place. In a way she's almost like a child and doesn't understand Montag's problems, making it hard for her to have sympathy for him.

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    4. I agree with Brett, that is a very good idea. I feel that she doesn't know enough other than her tv, she doesn't know exactly how to respond, she seems very attached to her electronics

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    6. I think Mildred is unstable and can not process what Montag is telling her because she is a rule follower and thinks that the fireman's actions were just; "You want to give up everything?...because some woman and her book(48).

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  11. I think that now that Clarrise is gone Montag will remember all of the questions she asked and made him think about everyday because he is questioning his job and books and things like that since she has been gone.

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  12. Going on what Marissa said about where Clairresse went, I personally think she was sent to the insane asylum.

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  13. Marissa, I like your idea. I think that it would make sense for them to be almost holding her hostage considering Clarisse knows so much.

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  14. I think Montag is in a way scared for what might happen to him if he reads the books so he wants to make himself feel better by bringing Millie into the problem. "I didn't really think, but now it looks as if we are in this together." I imagine Montag saying this in a worried tone; if he goes down, so does Millie.

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  15. I like what Kyle said about how Mildred is not who Montag thinks she is. Montag wants to know the truth and Mildred is more about following the crowd and not asking questions

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    1. This is a good observation, do you think Mildred is afraid of the truths of the world? For ex. she doesn't want to read books or talk about the lady who died in the fire.

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    2. She wants to follow the rules and go with society and you can see that with how she acts about the tv and doesn't challenge her way of life. She thinks she is happy and what montag is doing is scary to her.

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    3. Thats just the thing tv has such a big impact on her, it causes her to believe everything she sees. It's blocking her out from the real world.

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    4. This is a good observation, do you think Mildred is afraid of the truths of the world? For ex. she doesn't want to read books or talk about the lady who died in the fire.

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  16. Lorelei, your question is a very good one. Personally, Mildred could've possibly killed Clarisse. Maybe Mildred felt like Clarisse was a threat to her life style.

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  17. Do you think it is possible that Mildred has been working for this "government/program" and has known all these secrets from the books and that's why she never speaks and that's why she wants to die because she knows all about the secrets and doesn't want to live in a world full of secrets.

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  18. @marissa and @lexi Good Point! Also when Mildred mentioned the 4th tv, Montag mentioned that that was a 1/3 of his paycheck. Mildred acted like she didn't really care. She is obviously about what makes her happy.

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  19. Good question @lorelei I think that Mildred could have killed Clarrise because she knows how she died and she does drive really fast and runs over animals. I agree with @Lexi that Mildred is very selfish and she only cares about things and TV and so I think that this is the reason why she is so unstable because she watches TV and wants to be like these characters and to be perfect.

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  20. I think Montag will realize he doesn't really love Mildred and he will leave her and kind of go on a mission of his own to find out what happened with Clarisse and the reason behind the book burning.

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  22. Why does Mildred seem so un-phased to death and sadness?

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    1. I don't think Mildred fully understands what Montag is going through, she has been living in her TV world for so long that she almost thinks of real life as TV and she doesn't think its real and everything is perfect and nothing can go wrong. She isn't phased by it because she doesn't accept that that is really what is happening

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    2. I feel that she seems like this because she has never really experienced it first hand she is to tied into her electronics and she doesn't think about the outside world as much

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    3. I don't think it is that big a deal in their society. She already tried to kill herself and the man said they can many cases every night. The firefighters also kill people and burn the books and they don't realize how big of a deal it is because they do not read about the pain and death in history.

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    4. I think that this is just the conditioning of society and she has become desenitized to the death of readers because she was raised seeing them as bad people. For example she says, "She (lady who was burned) was simple minded." (bradbury pg 48)

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  23. I really like how Gianna said that the entire Society is people doing what is expected and fear based. I think this is very true and most people are simply conforming because the government tells them that they have to.

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    1. I agree with that but I also think that the bulk of society does not know anything other than this life style, everything they know is told to them by the "government" and they have no other sources to confirm this info.

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  24. Also, Montag continues to mention when he puts on his jacket he talks about the burning salamander on the sleeve. Why a salamander? And what do you think this means?

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    1. I was curious about this aswell, another circumstance it is mentioned is when Captain Beatty is walking up to the house.

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    2. @Bergen. In ancient history, the hieroglyphs, a salamander represented fire. A 12th-century letter supposedly from Prester John says, "Our realm yields the worm known as the salamander. Salamanders live in fire and make cocoons, which our court ladies spin and use to weave cloth and garments. To wash and clean these fabrics, they throw them into flames." Friar also notes that Marco Polo believed that the "true" salamander was an incombustible substance found in the earth.

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    3. I was curious about this aswell, another circumstance it is mentioned is when Captain Beatty is walking up to the house.

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    4. Salamanders were used to thought to be born in fire, even though it was just because salamanders would sleep in logs that would be used as firewoods so when it was put in the fire it would run out. thus causing the image of being born from fire.

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    5. I was looking that up and it talks about how its "The Hearth and the Salamander" because the hearth is the place of where the fire is held, and the salamander is known for "Living in Fire" and not being affected by it

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    1. I feel that Mildred is extremely immature and does not know how to handle normal, everyday situations in a mature manor.

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    2. Her everyday situations are also a lot different for her because she is always watching tv and doesn't really do much with her life.

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    3. I agree with this, I also think she is very attached to material possessions and is a very selfish person.

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  30. Its really hard to hear the center, most of them are speaking very quietly

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  31. @Bergen Along with being associated with fire, the salamander was associated with poison. Could that maybe have had an effect on Bradbury's choice of the animal?

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    1. Ooooo! I like your point Jess. Poison kills just like the goverment is killing freedom.

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  32. "Mildreds hand frozen behind the pillow. Her fingers were tracing the books outline and as the shape became familiar her face looked surprised and then stunned" p. 53 Do you think she is going to turn him in or just let him keep them but be very careful? Do you think she will get curious and read him.

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